Curse

Mordakai · Oct 07, 2006, 04:44 AM // 04:44

Whew. I thought for sure this thread would be closed by now.

Thanks, Mods, for keeping it open. And thanks for those mature posters here who can argue intelligently, and not resort to insults.

LoKi Foxfire · Oct 07, 2006, 04:47 AM // 04:47

It's a game. You guys need to relax and realize that things like this are aimed the much larger masses of casual gamers out there. I'm glad for this change because it finally means I can just go find a bad % mod weapon with a rare skin and mod it to what I want. I mean really, this is a good change because hopefully it will mean we have to grind less just to get the right type of weapon with the right skin and the right mods. Crystalline and Celestials will still be rare as they ever were - now it just means that their value will deflate hopefully. :3

Spirit Of Azrael · Oct 07, 2006, 04:53 AM // 04:53

I'm just glad I saved my r7 15-22 Gothic Sword... and my 15^50 r11 Runic... Gonna put that mod on my 14^50 Sephis just so its perfect lol...

manitoba1073 · Oct 07, 2006, 04:54 AM // 04:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

Well, how isn't that about a change to the status quo, just like I said?

.

confussed i dont see how. ive never really seen any status quo you seem to think exists. im not forced nor is any one else forced to do any thing they dont want to period.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

You know, all the options the anti-people are naming as alternatives to custom-built maxed equiptment (collector weapons, greens) will see the less affluent people through the bumpy ride while the economy settles. In the end, it will be better. Supply and demand will kick in, and once that does, ANet can easily tweak item prices by changing drop rates. .

and go through server resets every week. yeap that settles well with everyone i bet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

But... we don't have a clue how ANet will be going about it!

.

we may not know how they are gonna do it, but we do know what the results are for now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

I addressed that a few lines back. Once the economy settles, it can be manipulated to ANet's content by changing drop rates. .

again you willing to wait the months for this to happen or go through weekly server resets? so in other words your willing to let everything go to hell basically and let anet fix it months down the line. just for your own personal wants.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

Bots shouldn't be taken into account of anything. A game should be catered to players, and problems caused by botting should be fixed by stomping the bot problem. .

well has anet done anything in the last 16 months.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

I really don't want to go into typecasting anyone whether or not they're participating in this discussion. I'm sure you're a nice guy, no sarcasm, but I think you're being far too pessimistic about all this.

Just wait and see..

unfortuantely we all have type casted people in this thread, and most likely people will continue, and what usually happens to the wait and seer's , most of the times they get ran over and left behind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

I don't begrudge anyone their playing style, but when changes I look forward to cramp another's style, I know where I stand. On my side.

It would be too bad if anyone actually left the game over it.

of course u stand on what ever side benefits yourself, thats also called being selfish. which some people obviously just cant seem to get past. i wont name them. and yes it would be a shame for people to leave such a great game over this, but it wont be any of our own doing but anets own fault.

Originally Posted by Gli
You'd think this would've gotten as big as 51 pages if it were just flames, before it was closed down? There have been some great points raised by both sides of the issue from the start, until 1 page ago.
It's all over now though. Alas, poor thread, we hardly knew you.

i aggree with u on that theres been lots of great discussions on both sides. but i believe theres still alot more to be discussed.

Mordakai,

u mentioned several times how you would like this or that, its all fine but do u really a zodiac staff with the mods you want, when u can get the mods from another staff or even a wand and an offhand. u have lots of choices, even if it takes a few secs to look on wiki, granted its nice to have what we want but is it essential other than vanity to have that zodiac staff, the reason why i am asking cause u have mentioned several times off and on how all u want are the mods and before u was saying how u want your zodiac staff. no offense intended, just wondering on that. just because u cant find the combo for your staff you can find the combo with offhand and wand. yes theres 20/20 wands.

Originally Posted by lord_shar
The whole purpose of the inscription system is to allow for greater weapon customizability.

which no one has a problem with being able to customize your weapons or what not. its a problem with how they may go about it and the effects of it.

and im in agree on how a weapon should never cost more than a player can trade for one, however just how much do think a player can trade for one.
its alot more than u realize im sure. so lets see 100k + 7 slots in the trade function so 7x250 ectos so we are at 100k+1700 ectos yes that would be very obscene for any thing. now is 100k bad for say a golden phenoix blade say req 9 15^50 not really, they are not as easy to get as u think and only drop in 3 places and only come in gold. chaos axes on the other hand come in all colors but only come from 1 place.

Originally Posted by MSecorsky
What inscriptions will ultimately do is make players like myself, the casual maybe a couple hours a night, not every night, have a whole lot more fun. For example:

The other night I got a white max damage fellblade, no mods whatsoever. I now have visions of Koss running around with a white 15>50 fellblade with all the fixings, so to speak. Would I ever buy something like this for a hero? Hell no. I do cartwheels if I accidentally go over 50 Plat in storage.

and yet no one is against doing just that. except maybe going over 50k in storage, how dare u call that an accident

Anyhow, folks like me that don't buy weapons (just seems silly...) will make out the best from this. I'll be able to equip my heros, for example, with top line items scavanged together plus the occassional green and will be quite happy for it.

really now, thats very odd as most traders and farmers i know dont buy that stuff usually themselves either, so then who usually is the buyers, actually it is the casual player cause they dont want to farm for them. 90% im guessing is casual players buying for that reason alone.

Couple things waiting for the mod table... a set of Golden Talons I got in a chest, a req 9 Platium Longbow, 15>50 already (another chest), a req 8 Grinning Longbow (not 15>50 yet...)... couple staves and the like... and none of it will cost me more than the cost of salvaging.

grats on what u got there

Until I sell excess 15>50 inscriptions for 5K, perhaps, for spending money. Or trade for keys. I like keys.

really even if people are selling them at 50k to 100k each. sure people will be all over you like bees on honey for that. carefull not letting anyone take advantage from you on that.

Originally Posted by Abnaxus
There's no predetermined cost for a rare skinned weapon, it's all left to the negotiations between players.

gee thanxs for telling the trading secret.

Originally Posted by Ghull Ka

1. Guild Wars is not an MMORPG.
2. Me being upset about having to trade to get the items (read: mods) I want isn't "lazyness". I don't like dealing with trader-gamers. I don't like playing the "offer" game, and I don't like a bunch of megalomaniac jerks price-fixing and gouging me out of plat that I'd rather not spend time farming, just to get standard mods.
3. Get off your lazy ass an get a job, then you could afford WoW. I guess you just want your gaming experience handed to you on a silver platter, huh?

1. really what do you call a massisively multiplayer online role playing game, thought GW fits that nicely just with maximum sized party of eight, and instances. prolly dont get into towns much huh?

2. plzz see what abnaxus wrote, u can always set your own priceing and not worry what others price them at, a little haggling also never hurts. hell i got req 8 summit axe 15^50 for 5k. all i had to do was do this WTB gold req 11-13 15^50's 5k each. stange as how i wasnt even asking for that particular req huh.

3.isnt that really what everyone is asking for also.

i still believe this would be the best way for anet to do it.

1. merchants or a weaponsmith in certain locations that u can buy the inherent mods for ur weapons when u purchase the upgrade it also automatically customizes that weapon for that user.

lol i may have to quit work just to keep up with the posts here

Mordakai · Oct 07, 2006, 05:03 AM // 05:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

i still believe this would be the best way for anet to do it.

1. merchants or a weaponsmith in certain locations that u can buy the inherent mods for ur weapons when u purchase the upgrade it also automatically customizes that weapon for that user.

Will this only work on weapons, or off-hands as well?

Oh, and I never said I wanted a Zodiac. That must be someone else.

I've always been quite clear I personally could care less about skins, but just because I don't want them, doesn't mean I'm against the idea of Inscriptions.

Quite honestly, people are taking this way too seriously, (myself included), and it's probably just a tempest in a teapot. I can't wait to get some official confirmation so at least we know what's going on.

arcanemacabre · Oct 07, 2006, 05:42 AM // 05:42

Really, this thread should seriously just be closed, and re-opened upon release. Then the comments on how it really works will arrive.

Honestly, of all the discussion, has anyone mentioned that little part in the magazine that says something about the armor system being simplified? Where it says you can exchange out pieces like say, the breastplate. I know we've questioned it, and laughed at it's inaccuracy, but could it really be a new system of armor?

I think I also remember it saying that the inscriptions will be applied to the armor. Perhaps it means the little inherent bonuses like +XX health or energy, or +XX armor vs. whatever. Let's discuss that for a while. After all, we know as much about that as anything else in this thread. It's just more speculation, but healthier, non-argumentative speculation.

lord_shar · Oct 07, 2006, 05:43 AM // 05:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_shar

The whole purpose of the inscription system is to allow for greater weapon customizability.

which no one has a problem with being able to customize your weapons or what not. its a problem with how they may go about it and the effects of it.

I would "guess" that the inscription system will probably follow the same provisions of existing salvage procedures plus a few changes:

1) An expert salvage kit of some sort will still be needed
2) the base weapon will no longer be destroyed
3) the mod being extracted (prefix, inscription, suffix) can now be chosen, probably via new window pop-up interface

When you mention "effects," are you referring to the price shift the market will probably take in response to these changes? There is little doubt that the ultra-high-end weapon market will probably deflate. However, the vanity skins won't lose any popularity nor demand. On the contrary, they will actually become more usable now that users don't have to settle for less-than-optimum weapon mods.

Just more hot air...

manitoba1073 · Oct 07, 2006, 10:13 AM // 10:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

Will this only work on weapons, or off-hands as well?

Oh, and I never said I wanted a Zodiac. That must be someone else.

I've always been quite clear I personally could care less about skins, but just because I don't want them, doesn't mean I'm against the idea of Inscriptions.

hehe yeah sorry for that. did get you confussed with someone else

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_shar

When you mention "effects," are you referring to the price shift the market will probably take in response to these changes? There is little doubt that the ultra-high-end weapon market will probably deflate. However, the vanity skins won't lose any popularity nor demand. On the contrary, they will actually become more usable now that users don't have to settle for less-than-optimum weapon mods.

Just more hot air...

yes i am mean the price shifts. not worried or care for the high end market. and not worried about the vanity either.

however with no increase in supply and a increase in demand we can hazard a close guess that the inscriptions will not be cheap for a while. say as ive said that 15^50s will be 50k as i guess a good general rough idea. really high for new players to even get close to unless they have a lucky drop. or even the perfect staff ugrades will be up there, considering that anet says the average player has only 20k. places even more outa the reach for most players, is my concern and always has been.

Gli · Oct 07, 2006, 10:48 AM // 10:48

Eh? I really don't get that.

No increase of supply and an increase of demand? We're talking about something completely new here. Even if it starts out expensive and takes a while to settle, the average '20k player' will still have every option that exists right now (greens, collector stuff, crafter stuff), and more! How is this bad for them?

Phoebe · Oct 07, 2006, 02:10 PM // 14:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

say as ive said that 15^50s will be 50k as i guess a good general rough idea.

15^50 mods are actually common, alot more common than 20/20 sundering.
They just usually happen on weapon with crappy damage range, skin or requirement.

Jetdoc · Oct 07, 2006, 02:59 PM // 14:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by sumrtym

So which is it? Do you want more variety or less? This allows greater variety in skin choice cause now we can get skins we want with the modifiers we want. This is not true today, more so in terms of shields/wands/staffs, but true none the same for other weapons.

You guys waffle more than the waffle house. In one breath, you say it will take away variety cause people can put together weapons and will all want the same skin. In the next, you tell everyone to use the same collector skin that can't get the skin they want.

I'd like for you to specifically point out where I have "waffled" in any of my posts.

My basic premise that variety should be allowed, but there should be a cost for that variety. Everyone has access to the "perfect" item from a functionality standpoint - collectors/crafters/greens. If you want something that looks different from those skins, you have to pay for it - pure and simple. This is the exact premise of 1.5K versus 15K versus FoW armor - the more varied the skin you want, the more you have to pay for it.

Again, I hold a number of items with skins that I absolutely love, but they are less than perfect. As such, I will benefit from this change. However, I don't think that this change is good for the GW economy in the long run, as these various skins are a "goal" for many players to obtain, and this would eliminate that goal, dramatically impacting their gameplay (whether you agree with it or not).

Jetdoc · Oct 07, 2006, 03:05 PM // 15:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abnaxus

That's not correct.

A 15K armor actually costs 15k per piece, in the sense that you cannot negotiate with the crafter to have a discount and pay let's say 10k

Which is the "cost" of a rare skinned weapon?

There's no predetermined cost for a rare skinned weapon, it's all left to the negotiations between players.

You are simply making a semantics argument at this point.

What I am saying that, other than for the insanely rare skins (e.g. crystallines, dwarven/serpent axes, etal), the majority of rare skinned items can be obtained for around 100K with perfect modifiers from other players. Simply go to our Ventari's Sell forum and you can find your perfect zodiac item for that amount.

That is the same "cost" as a full set of 15K armor + materials - 15K x 5 pieces + 25K for materials = 100K.

It's very hard for me to understand why people believe that players should have to pay for vanity in one aspect of the game (i.e. armor), but not have to pay for it in another aspect of the game (i.e. weapons).

You simply cannot have your cake and eat it too. If you believe that GW should have no grind, then ALL items that require grind should be eliminated/drastically reduced in cost. Taking the position that "some" should be reduced doesn't make logical sense, IMO. I'd love to hear that side of the argument from some of the posters that have put it forth.

Jetdoc · Oct 07, 2006, 03:07 PM // 15:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

Whew. I thought for sure this thread would be closed by now.

Thanks, Mods, for keeping it open. And thanks for those mature posters here who can argue intelligently, and not resort to insults.

I agree. We have some very good debates in here, and simply stating "we shouldn't put forth our opinions on something that isn't official yet" isn't the best policy, IMO, as it is obvious that this is something that GW community wants to discuss.

Jetdoc · Oct 07, 2006, 03:14 PM // 15:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

You're forgetting one major point that PC gamer mentioned: salvaging without destroying the weapon and swapping inscriptions. I'm going to need far less weapons if I can swap upgrades and inscriptions among them. If my +3 vampiric/+7 vs. physical sword would be better with a stance bonus in a certain situation, I'll do a little swap and presto. Of course my game play would be impacted, I would have easy access to every possible weapon imaginable without having to spend tons of time trying to get them all.

This is a good point, but in the end all you are really doing is saving yourself inventory slots so that you can have every type of permutation of weapon at your fingertips. I've seen this exact same argument on armor, etal...

In short, I believe that, in order to maintain an efficient inventory space, you have to simply make choices - you can't have everything available to you at every moment. I would personally like to have a set of every type of armor available for each of my characters (and I can afford it), but I have had to make sacrifices by choosing the types that I utilize the most.

So, in short, do you really need to have swords with +5 defense, +7 vs. physical, +7 vs. elemental and +30 health? You really would LIKE to have this, but you simply don't NEED it. That is a choice we have to make in real life, which I see being no different in game.

Clawdius_Talonious · Oct 07, 2006, 04:36 PM // 16:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

However, I don't think that this change is good for the GW economy in the long run, as these various skins are a "goal" for many players to obtain, and this would eliminate that goal, dramatically impacting their gameplay (whether you agree with it or not).

Perhaps that will prove to be the case, however if this affects the economy so that people will have to work at farming the FoW and UW in order to aquire Obsidian armors, instead of simply selling items and buying the materials... Perhaps that will leave players with a goal more oriented towards gameplay rather than dealing with the WTB/WTS/Offer game that has sprouted it's own community which is seperate from the rest of the Guild Wars community IMO...

And I do really think that we're dealing with a community that exists outside of the average Guild Wars players community. Most people who actually PLAY the game don't sit around all day hawking items and aquiring more virtual wealth, the vast majority of people I encounter ingame are more interested in playing the game than in buying/selling items. Perhaps Anet didn't intend for many people to run around in obsidian armor without ever having set foot in the Underworld?

Me personally, I consider going after Advanced Skill Hunter to be a better time than having 250 ecto in storage. And while I accept the things I cannot change, I think that Anet has decided to make this change which may disrupt the market for so called "perfect" weapons. And if in the end, people end up spending some of their accumulated wealth instead of simply passing it back and forth, so much the better.

I suppose if I had spent 3000 hours on this game aquiring virtual wealth and my method for doing it was about to go away, I'd be complaining too. But I've spent my 3000 hours logged in doing missions, quests, and PVP.

Akhilleus · Oct 07, 2006, 05:04 PM // 17:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clawdius_Talonious

Perhaps that will leave players with a goal more oriented towards gameplay rather than dealing with the WTB/WTS/Offer game that has sprouted it's own community which is seperate from the rest of the Guild Wars community IMO...

as long as there is farming or the ability to trade items, there will be traders. period.
why?
for one, many people in this thread have made an argument that sitting in a trade channel isnt the "propper" way to play the game.
A: whose to say that isnt propper? its simply a different way of playing the game than other people, and the misconception that traders dont actually play the game, is 100% rubbish. for one, a good trader can get FAR wealthier FAR quicker than a farmer, allowing them to play the game more often. the difference is it takes more knowledge, it (arguably) takes some starting cash, and theres a risk of losing money involved (every trade is an investment, one that can make a return, or one that can make a loss).
B: those same people who dispise traders, have undoubetly utilized their services at least once. and no, the people who sit in a trade channel for hours trying to oversell or underprice items, are not actual traders, they are scalpers, and i have always wondered "when will they ever learn." someone whose selling/buying the same item for 16 hours with no bites, is CLEARLY doing something wrong. in the many hours it takes to sell an item for 30% more than what you bought it, you can sell 10 items for 20% more than what you bought them for...overall increasing your profit potential. trade isnt about getting as much as possible or buying for as little as possible; its a balance between profit, and quantity, and those who dont understand this, not only make a bad name for the rest of us, but they also dont do that well.

but i digress...
that having been said, and back to my origional point. lets say someone has just gotten back from getting a really nice item forma chest while questing with some friends, or after getting a nice crystalline or dwarven in an HA chest, or after hours of farming in wherever it is farmers farm. these kinds of people, casual pvers, pvpers, farmers, generally do not like trading. they find it booring, and most, arent that good at it. so, their objective is to get the money for the item as fast as possible so they can get back to what they are doing.
as a result, if they know they can get (lets say for the sake of my point) 100k+10 ectos for the item if they spend time selling it, they may sell it for 100k+5 ectos, knowing that it will be bought quickly, and the extra 5 ecto may not be that big a deal to them anyway, since they ahve more fun doing other things.
this is where the trader comes in. that moron thats been sitting in LA for 15 hours selling the same overpriced item, probably doesnt know his prices, and as such, probably doesnt recognize the good deal to begin with...so he continues wasting his time. i, and other traders, on the other hand, would spot the deal, buy the item, and sell it.
now...on the converse...
when a casual pver, farmer, or pvper gets doing doing their stuff, but they've been wanting a certain itemf or a while, whats the LAST thing they want to do yet again? A: sit in LA1 or KC1 for 5 hours trying to buy the item they want cheaply. so, they may pay a little overhead just for the sake of not wasting time, and in the farmers case, they may make more money farming than looking for a good price.
now, again, heres where our trader comes in, the trader sees the WTB for the item he bought however long ago for 100k+5 ecto, only the WTB is 100k+15 ecto (since, again, they may be willing to pay extra just to get the trade done fast), and promptly sells the item.
EVERYONE wins.
the casual pver, farmer, pvper buy/sell what they want without "wasting" time trading, while the traders, who dont mind trading, and make a living off of this kind of thing, makes himself a nice little profit.
we're not evil, and contrary to popular belife, we dont go around ripping people off. 99.9% of the profitable trades ive made have been by people who sell for a little less or buy for a little more, to save themselves the agony of dealing with imbicils.
if anything, traders provide a valuable service. as long as there are items to trade there will people who hate to trade, and those who dont mind it, and can make a profit off of it. so, untill anet removes the trade window, there WILL be traders. we're the median between the farmer and the average player. and again, we dont spend all our time trading either, ive spent far more time talking in ice tooth cave, than i have veiwing items in LA1/KC1. and thats another thing, most good traders will RARELY spam a WTB/WTS, most good traders simply watch the WTBs and WTS spams go by, picking up where they may make a profit, with the occasional WTS for an item they really need to get rid of. but any good trader knows, the LAST thing you want to do after buying an item, is immidatly turn around and try to sell it. why? its counterproductive. you'll waste your time trying to sell the item, without getting too many sane offers, then get sick of selling it, and dump it for less than what you bought it for just because you dont want to see it again. the smart trader keeps it in his inventory or on a mule, and sells it when the opportunity arrives. its less taxing on your sanity, more conveniant, and in the long run, usually more profitable.

Clawdius_Talonious · Oct 07, 2006, 05:28 PM // 17:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akhilleus

as long as there is farming or the ability to trade items, there will be traders. period.
why?
for one, many people in this thread have made an argument that sitting in a trade channel isnt the "propper" way to play the game.

I myself have never argued that trading was an improper way to play the game, however I do understand some people's arguments that they dislike having to deal with the whole ordeal. I myself will pay top dollar for merchandise I wish to aquire if I feel that it will take less time to get (for example) a totem axe for 10k than it would to get it for 5k, I will pay the additional gold to get said totem axe faster.

Traders do fill a void in the Guild Wars community (where there is no communal auction house or whatever), and while I do understand their role in the game, I also see where people are somewhat put off by some items pricing.

My main point in my previous post was that I see a rift between the traders and the casual GW community, and if Anet has decided to attempt to stop the dividing of players and perhaps reknit the community through additions to the salvaging and trading system so much the better.

I for one cannot wait to see what Anet has in store.

manitoba1073 · Oct 07, 2006, 06:15 PM // 18:15

[QUOTE=Clawdius_Talonious]I myself have never argued that trading was an improper way to play the game, however I do understand some people's arguments that they dislike having to deal with the whole ordeal. I myself will pay top dollar for merchandise I wish to aquire if I feel that it will take less time to get (for example) a totem axe for 10k than it would to get it for 5k, I will pay the additional gold to get said totem axe faster.[QUOTE]

and yet here u go makeing the trader problem yet worse. why u ask i say that as you have just payed double for the totem axe. that is why there is a hugh price problem, you could not have put it better. that is why there is rediculous prices in this game. i know you used it as an example. you feel you dont wanna waste your time( which is exceptable)so you would be willing to pay double. instead of taking 5 mins or so, you would have effectively doubled the price for totex axes

Clawdius_Talonious · Oct 07, 2006, 06:50 PM // 18:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

and yet here u go makeing the trader problem yet worse. why u ask i say that as you have just payed double for the totem axe. that is why there is a hugh price problem, you could not have put it better. that is why there is rediculous prices in this game. i know you used it as an example. you feel you dont wanna waste your time( which is exceptable)so you would be willing to pay double. instead of taking 5 mins or so, you would have effectively doubled the price for totex axes

Actually, 5-10k is the going rate for a Totem axe... If asked to offer I'd offer probably 7500, but if asked to pay 10k I'd consider that an acceptable price to pay, far from ridiculous. I suppose this could propigate people buying totem axes for 5k and waiting to turn them around for 7500-10k, but it's not exacerbating any problem as far as I see it.

What I said there was that I'll pay the higher of the going prices in order to expedite my purchase. The way I see it there's not so much a "trader problem" on greens, most of which sell for reasonable prices.

sumrtym · Oct 07, 2006, 07:53 PM // 19:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clawdius_Talonious

What I said there was that I'll pay the higher of the going prices in order to expedite my purchase. The way I see it there's not so much a "trader problem" on greens, most of which sell for reasonable prices.

Now, 6 months down the road on factions, and more than a year on prophecies. I see this doing for the gold item and upgrade market what naturally happens to greens much quicker....bringing out of control pricing into line. The ability to craft weapons more completely, including staffs / wands / shields, would also stabilize the green market faster too.